Third Verse, Different From the First

Gad, it's been a hell of long while between updates to this, but here are the top ten punk rock 'n' roll releases (more or less in order) as far as I can suss them at present:

1.  Ramones -- Ramones (1976)

2.  The Clash -- The Clash (1977)

3.  Ramones -- Leave Home (1977)

4.  Gang of Four -- Entertainment! (1979)

5.  Minutemen -- Double Nickels On The Dime (1984)

6.  The Saints -- (I'm) Stranded (1976)

7.  Desecendents -- Liveage! (1988) (recorded 7/13/87 -- First Ave., Minneapolis, MN) 

8.  Rocket From The Crypt -- Scream, Dracula, Scream (1995)

8.  The Damned -- Damned, Damned, Damned (1977)

9.  Misfits -- Walk Among Us (1982)

10.  Operation Ivy -- Energy (1989)

I am not including (a) the "forefathers of punk", i.e., The Stooges and the MC5, because when you are "proto" something, by definition you're not that thing that you're "proto" to.  As far other runk rock 'n' roll records, the only record I felt kind of weird leaving off was Dag Nasty's Can I Say (1986).  For whatever reason, I just couldn't declare it a better record than Energy.  Of course, all of this nonsense is subject to change.

I also left off the Sex Pistols' Never Mind the Bollocks..., because, as an album, it's kind of boring.  There are a few great songs, sure (E.M.I., Holidays In The Sun, No Feelings), but I think it's undeservedly reached the status of "unquestioned classic".  They just aren't that relevant as a rock 'n' roll band -- as a fashion statement, sure, or as an inspiration to other, better bands, but that's about it.  This may seem silly or extreme, but I'm right and you know it.

More details, etc., as needed.

Update!  Maybe in (partial) sympathy to Tom's valued feedback, I've cut Rocket From The Crypt from the Top 10 -- not because they're not in the Top 10 (they certainly are), but because I couldn't really come up with a definitive record for them: Scream, Dracula, Scream is the most polished and ambitious, but The State of the Art Is On Fire 10" is positively incendiary, as is Hot Charity.  So I've decided by not deciding.  Or by un-deciding.  Whatever.

Though I'm a little late in discovering The Saints, there's no way to deny the power of (I'm) Stranded -- it's an unbelievable punk rock 'n' roll record.  Crushing.  Check out the new Saints box set -- you can, uh, find it somewhere.  It has pretty much all of the Saints' output: (I'm) Stranded, Eternally Yours, Prehistoric Sounds, and a live record from 1977.  Apparently, any additional stuff is bunk -- it seems that the singer sort of swiped the name and kept on flogging the Saints' dead horse without the other members.

Also... after recently reading Jon Savage's England's Dreaming: Anarchy, Sex Pistols, Punk Rock, and Beyond, I still feel good about leaving the Sex Pistols off this list.  For the stated reasons and more besides -- I'll spare you... for the time being.  Anyway, England's Dreaming is a recommended read, though when I was done I kind of felt like I was missing something.  Or maybe (more specifically) an entire book devoted to the Sex Pistols is, in the end, kind of depressing.

Comments

[tom]

Right on re: Op Ivy and the Descendents. Both of those albums are amazing.

While we don't agree on the Ramones (especially the Ramones capping the Clash), thats why its your list and not mine.

My only real criticism would be Rocket. It is really hard to believe you'd rank that a better punk album than No Pocky or On The Mouth. It makes your list unique (you can be sure no other top ten punk of all time will include that album), but also makes me wonder if you're actually serious.

[Chay]

I'd agree about the Sex Pistols.. I guess purists call PiL "post-punk" but I'd put their 1990 release of Album up there with some of these.. all I know is that it outraged my parents so much, it got thrown in the trash, and so of course it was definitely upped in my estimation at the time..

[llogg]

husker du?

[very metal]

With Grant Hart's songs stinking up the joint, there's just no way any Husker Du record could be considered anything other "brilliant, yet horribly, horribly flawed". Sorry.

[very metal]

I just don't consider No Pocky for Kitty or On The Mouth punk per se -- yeah, if I did, I'd put No Pocky above Rocket. It's more of a genre issue, really.

[tom]

Fair enough. I think that pre-Foolish Superchunk is clearly a pop-punk band. Foolish is where they morph into something else. I'd call No Pocky their best punk album, and a contender for their best album, period. Depends on my mood.

Also missing from your list is the Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, Minor Threat, the Buzzcocks, and Fugazi. I'd imagine Fugazi falls into the same category as Superchunk -- not qualifying as punk.

Now that I think about it, not including Minor Threat is probably the absolute weirdest thing about your list. Maybe 'Out of Step' isn't good enough, or its too short, or something. But its fun to yell "Think... again! Think... again!"

Well, thanks! At the very least, you made me think... again! about what my favorite punk albums are. All-time favorite or best lists are fun. You should do indie rock albums next. I wonder how many spots Chunk, AOL, and Rocket will take.

Quick question: How do you classify the Pixies? If their earlier stuff isn't pop-punk, what the hell genre is it? What about their later stuff?

[tom]

OK, here is my top ten. With the limitation that the albums listed must be actual albums, not collections or whatnot.

1. The Clash -- London Calling
2. Dead Kennedys -- Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables
3. The Clash -- The Clash
4. The Ramones -- The Ramones
5. The Descendents -- Milo Goes To College
6. Operation Ivy -- Energy
7. Minor Threat -- Out of Step
8. Black Flag -- Damaged
9. Jawbreaker -- Unfun
10. Rancid -- Lets Go

Note that I wanted to put Surfer Rosa and on the above list, but caved to them not counting as punk. I also took No Pocky off the list for the same reason... I relistened, and while I still think the album is massively more (pop-)punk than Rocket's Scream Dracula Scream, its merit is really in the melodic and the pop, and less in the punk, vein. (There are not-really-punk arguments that could be made about several albums on the list, including even London Calling). I also tried to balance what I like the most with what is probably more essential/important about 50-50.

The list is really hard to put together if you just do albums. Most of the old punk I listened to was on fifth or sixth generation copied cassettes, most of the new punk was on seven inches and mix tapes. Bands I thought were great have almost no representation because I've either never/rarely heard their actual albums, or their albums aren't nearly as good as the songs I enjoyed on the mix tapes.

Putting this list together also made me realize that I don't like punk as much as I used to, and I probably haven't really LOVED punk rock since I was in high school. Go figure.

Stuff (protopunk, punk, and postpunk) I intentionally left off, either because I don't like it, or I really like it but don't consider it punk, or because I do like it AND I consider it punk but I don't like it as much as the above list, OR that their best material wasn't on a formal LP: All, Avail, Bad Brains, Bad Religion, Big Black, Blondie, David Bowie, Butthole Surfers, Buzzcocks, The Circle Jerks, Conflict, Crass, Cub, Dagnasty, The Damned, Dead Milkmen, Down By Law, Fear, Fugazi, Gang of Four, The Germs, The Go-Go's, Green Day, Guided By Voices, Husker Du, The Jam, Magnapop, MC5, Minutemen, Mission to Burma, The Misfits, Pere Ubu, PiL, Pixies, Iggy Pop, Screeching Weasel, Smoking Popes, Sonic Youth, The Stooges, Talking Heads, Television, The Vandals, Velvet Underground, Wire, X

[Evan]

I think Johnny's singing was the take home lesson of the Pistols. You're totally right that Bollocks is less than timeless.